RELIGION AND POLITICS: DEBATE OR COMBAT
77POLITICS AND RELIGION: DEBATE OR COMBAT?
WHAT IS DEBATE?
Pardon me, but I'm confused. When did debate become a situation that feels more like war than a discussion? Honestly, I hate to even write a hub that could classify as political any longer, because I'm not interested in having verbal hand grenades thrown at my site, or at me personally.
What is Debate"
Debate is when two logical, non-emotional individuals, or groups of individuals, agree to take opposing sides of an issue, and argue their points of view using rational. One way you know it is a debate is that the subject discussed is the topic decided upon, not those entering into the discussion. Another way you can determine it is actually a debate, is in the tendency of those debating to actually listen to the views of their opponents before they begin arguing their own points.
What is war?
War usually happens when all diplomacy has failed. There may be a reason for war initially, but once the killing starts, the point is usually to kill the other guy before he kills you first. There is no logic here, other than the need to survive by killing the enemy before he can kill you. No one cares what the enemy thinks here, we just don't want to be the one who is left dead. Unfortunately, debates on religion and politics are in many ways more like war than like debate.
Extreme Emotion
One quality I've noticed in political debates (if we can even call them that) is that the emotion becomes very intense and ugly. Today somebody left comments on a site I actually wrote close to a year ago, and kept writing, and kept writing, and kept writing. The person did not even give me a chance to respond to one comment before she added three more. To be honest, I only read the first one, because my heart was beginning to beat and I felt myself becoming angry, not so much at what she had written, but at the manner in which she was writing it. She was behaving as if she could force her opinion on me through behaving like a bulldozer. It was the closest thing to non-sexual rape I've experienced lately. I did not deny her comments; I simply did not bother reading them.
Non-constructive criticism
Some people find it easier to attack something about your writing style when they are not happy about the point you are making, than to attack the root of their frustration. The first time this happened to me was related to a lyric I wrote and placed on hubpages. While I am not a fundamentally religious person, the content did use symbolism for the power of love that included a picture of Jesus, among other visual images. My writing was attacked because I had used all capital letters. This I had done to avoid the hassle of having to capitalize the first letter of each word. It had no hidden meaning, and had been done many times before, with no negative repercussions. While I was accused of "screaming" at my readers, only the one person was offended, and I tend to think the problem was with my religious imagery, rather than my capital letters.
The person who left about five comments before I could respond to her first today, had the same complaint, only in her case, the capital letters hurt her eyes. I guess I could complain about her five comments too, but didn't bother reading them, nor complaining about them.
Make love, not war
The truth is I don't like to argue and fight. I do like to communicate my views, and read the views of others; however, frontal attacks are not something I enjoy, nor respond to very often. I would actually rather just walk away than be bothered with arguing, since my experience is that no one really changes anyone Else's mind anyway, and once people begin arguing, they are not actually listening to one another, but instead, attempting to drown each other out. I do not enjoy being angry, so I tend to make jokes, start flirting, or avoid the discussion altogether. Quite frankly, I hate to fight.
If you are a writer of political sites:
Don't be offended that I don't read them, especially if they have words within their title bashing the President of the United States. This is a sure sign I don't want to read the hub. You have a right to your opinion, but I also have a right to censure what I put into my brain, and to use my own time wisely. You are not going to change my mind about the president, capitalism, socialism, or any of the other heated issues found on these hubs, and I want to enjoy what I read. Chances are I might love you as a person in other respects, and might love some of your hubs; just don't expect me to read something that is going to cause me to feel angry, unhappy, or nervous, if I know before I read it that is going to be the case. My time is too valuable to waste.
Religion and Politics
Don't be offended; I don't even engage in political discussions with my own family, because I hate to fight. I look for ways to bond and enjoy other writers and people, hoping to connect, not to drift further apart through angry comments that become even more extreme than we actually feel. Anger is like a drug; it is mind altering, and can easily cause us to say, or write, things we don't even actually believe. I don't want to record anything I don't actually believe, because it may revisit me at some time when I am least expecting it, or needing it.
I read many hubs written by people of various faiths; however, rarely do I write one. My faith is a personal choice, and one I do not attempt to force on others. I am not willing to debate my faith, because it is not a matter of debate. It is a matter of faith so I can not even be sure it is true. How then can I debate it? My faith happens through powers greater than myself, and is not open for debate with mortals. You can not change my mind on matters of the faith, because they are insights gained through my life experiences, and are constantly in process. I will not allow you to place God in a box decorated with your particular wrapping paper, just because it makes you feel more comfortable to do so, and then present him or her to me. I can seek God on my own, and our creator will respond to me. I do not believe any human being is capable of understanding the mind of God. Too often we attempt to create a God in our own image, instead of the other way around. If a uniform structure makes you feel more comfortable, then go with one, but my God is too big to fit into your box.
There is some bad in the best of us, and so much good in the worst of us, that we should have no problem finding subjects we can agree upon, or at least enjoy sharing. Lets stick to those. Lets build bridges rather than walls.
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H'mmm ... I'm quite outspoken about politics, and I love to debate. Not with most people, though. Debating with someone who takes it all too seriously is no fun; their brains shut down and are overridden by their emotions. To debate properly, one needs to disconnect from the issue and realize it's not the be-all, end-all, only game in town.
But then, as you suggested, some things are just too big and too important to debate, 'cause you know the wheels are going to come off anyway.
Valerie, excellent points. Walls are useless. Bridges are much better. Even if the person sitting across the table from me is a liberal atheist from New York City, there's got to be something that will serve as common ground.
"liberal atheist from New York City." LOL. I need to check to see where you are from. You could have been my Dad making that statement. Of course, he was so conservative he thought I was liberal; much of it is a matter of where you are on the spectrum. In my personal life, I tend to avoid political discussions with people I know don't agree with me, because the emotion runs too high and I don't find it pleasant, but on here, my opinion is already on my hubs, so I'd just prefer people not go to war over it. Being outspoken is one thing, as most writers are, but access emotion causes people to start trying to shout each other out. Anyway, thanks for responding to my site. (: v
Valerie, I can't help it anymore. I can be eating at a friend's home with a table full of people. When the futility of this discussing of politics gets started I may and have just excused myself and walked out. I have never belonged to any political party. Let me state here as on my hub that the GOP will never pass a law for the common man. The Dems? I'm not sure they ever will again. I'm just turned completely off. There is so much hyperbole around religion and politics. The bottom line -our system doesn't work because it is rigged. Our courts don't work which is the most obvious. I beat this horse to death, "Do a search for wrongfully imprisoned. The search CAN/Will never end." "We" have a good standard of living. "We" don't fight on our own shores - except with our own people - and that can be ugly and deadly! Until America destroys, repairs, overhauls this injustice system I will not take these "politics" nor religions seriously. We "buy" a lawyer to plea for us? The most money given to lawyers wins? The Golden Rule isn't just a good idea. The Golden Rule is THE law. Every religion has a form of it. Until America holds this law above all laws I won't participate. It's false. Thanks for a great hub!
I hate the "brands"- liberal- conservative! Geeeeeze! I've never seen a conservative conserve and liberals ain't that liberal! Some Atheists uphold the Golden Rule. That's the law of every religion! If a person does not hold this law above the others -it doesn't matter what their other beliefs are!
I relate. Unfortunately, many who argue religion look more like the picture of Jesus on this hub, than they do the image portrayed in the Christian Holy book. The woman who was venting, not communicating, on my Recession Diaries hub yesterday, seemed to believe that ownership gives people who are wealthy the right to work the poor as if they were slaves. There is no point in abolishing slavery, if we are going to worship capitalism to the point of making so called "free" slaves of those who must work to survive. Working millions of people on a part time basis in order to avoid offering them security or benefits is greed in my opinion, and for that reason, I avoid Wal-mart. I will not be owned simply because someone else has more money than I do. They will either pay me enough to make it worth my time, or they will not get the work done. If everyone lived according to this principle, big business would have to cater to the little man, union or no union. The criminal justice system you mentioned; I won't even go there. It is about what lawyer you can afford to pay. (: v
I think you're right about everything here. I wanted to bash the Mall-warts too but- honestly - can someone show me a good corporation? The grocery stores that require a "card" to get a discount? These folks want to "control me"? They do not have to know where I live to reorder the products. The products will be missing! I'll shop around anyway. I go to these stores but I don't like being refused a discount if I use the wrong keys one day or I'm being driven by someone else and the card is missing. Maybe Wal-Mart doesn't pay their employees very well. Who does? The average small businessman doesn't pay that well. The employees have no retirement. My place is with the poor. Where do the poor shop? They shop Wal-Mart. I am poor. I need the lowest prices and even with my "card" I can't get that lower price at the grocery stores. The products in food sections are the same. I buy almost nothing otherwise. Artists are big on supporting "local" businesses but I can't afford their art. Pottery? Can't! If there is a product that is created by denying human rights I will not buy it. If there is a "chain" for my products that promotes my ideals I will go there. Where is this service? I buy almost all clothes through consignment shops. I have summer T-shirts that will last another lifetime that I've gotten from cycling events.
The destruction of the middle class began mostly with Ronald Reagan. Unions were destroyed illegally during Reaganomics as they in the earlier part of the century. We've had Coca-Cola and Pepsi setting prices together. We've had the survival of the fittest until the best companies are dead. Right now "our capitalism" is communism! Our country is head-strong into welfare for the rich. It's recognized by every industrial country but our own.
Religions? My, my, my. Religions are chosen chiefly by location. If we were in Pakistan most of us would be Muslim. Italy? We'd be Catholic. India? Hindu. The problem with all religions and I will indeed single out Christianity because they are used and prostituted by the GOP mostly, - the problem is the absolute refusal to obey the Golden Rule. It is THE LAW of Christianity! This LAW is the law Jesus said to hold above all other laws. -Even above believing Jesus is God. We do need to meet on common ground. The common ground of all faiths is the Golden Rule. The Muslims that are killing in Nigeria need their butts kicked as any rligion does that uses it's religion to kill. The biggest problem with our country is the eagerness to hate. Another World Trade Center will occur to rally us to hate again. And again. False flags are wave by our businesses.
Sorry I've written so much- I just wish I knew where to shop. If Wally World is bad I don't want to shop there but- where are good business? Whatever I buy is not hurting anyone that I know of. On the other hand my Clothes Make the Man hub describes Tommy Hilfiger who will cheat workers on a US Commonwealth island and then sell the shirt for $150 at a mall? I don't like malls. So I'm in a quandary!
I relate, Micky Dee. Greed seems to be rampant in human nature. Wal-mart, obviously, is not the only evil empire, so to speak, and occasionally I do purchase something there. I voted for Jimmy Carter, and am yet to see all the wonderful attributes Regan is said to have, according to the conservative element. Our system of capitalism does bless the rich and curse the poor. Also, people, especially right winged Christians, treat capitalism as if it were a faith, and behave as if socialism were the ultimate evil. Sorry, but socialism doesn't scare me a bit. I don't agree with the "right" of the rich, and business owners from mom and pops to Wal-mart, to own people by workiing them with no benefits or security, not to mention low wages. This is nothing but slavery in disguise, and quite frankly, it isn't even a very good disguise. I am blessed with a substantially wealthy family, so I do not have to be a slave to Wal-Mart, or other mass producers as many do in order to survive. I spend much of my time writing about the greed I see around me, and trying to live by the golden rule. You are right, that the supposably right winged Christian element in our country have lost the concept of the golden rule. They have no compassion for the poor at all, and the attitude is that owning a business or property gives you the right to do anything you choose with no regard for those less fortunate. They go against every teaching Jesus ever advocated, so how can they claim to worship Jesus????? I worship him more than they do, and I haven't graced the doors of a church in over a year, because I can't stand to be around them. So, that is my problem, not only with Walmart, but with the world of capitalism, in general. I am not actually an advocate of socialism either, but regulated capitalism as our president supports, is what i would like to see take place. And my wealthy family? Many of them also support the president, though it means more taxes paid by them. The others support me, and keep me in food and the necessities of life, as well as the others, but fear losing money to taxes. Rich people are not all bad people, but if business is not regulated, capitalism ends up being slavery for the poor. It is not an altogether bad system, and I like the idea of motivation and ownership of property, but it must be regulated, and controlled somewhat in order to keep the American Dream alive and possible for all. (: v
Valerie, this is awesome and wonderful. Fanatics and extremists really need to read this hub, but the million dollar question is: Would they read of all of? I am sure they will easily get pissed off by the time they get to 40% of its content. Anyway, I have been more aware and better enlightened.
Dchosen, those who need to read it would probably not even get past the picture. LOL. Still, perhaps a rare person will learn something from it. (:v
I found the font that you used very offensive, and ... (just kidding).
I often feel the same way, wondering why I even engage in discussions related to politics and religion. But I often do it anyway, and I try (not always successfully) to promote a more balanced, moderate perspective than many people often hold. I don't know if it accomplishes much, but it is a good mental exercise.
Part of the problem is that people often demonize those with whom they disagree. It is not enough that someone else is wrong. They must also be a bad person. If you start to feel that your worldview might have some flaws, it is easier to convince yourself that the person causing you to ask unsettling questions is bad. That way, you can just write them off and settle back in to your comfort zone.
Hello Freeway Flyer, you had me nervous for a moment there. You are so correct. Just acknowledging that I might be wrong about something goes a long way. Thanks for your fresh approach. (:v
I could not agree with you more . . .
some people are so ignorant and feel that they are 100%right and you are completely and utterly wrong.They feel they have to keep shouting their ideas at you and wont let you talk until they think they have convinced you. I may only be a teenager that isn't even old enough to vote but i love politics and debates. Every night at my house my parents and i watch the news together. During the commercials we discuss the events that were talked about. I can only name about 2 or 3 people around my age that even care or pay attention to what goes on in the world, but yet often at school some kids always seem to feel that they know more, when they cant even name the speaker of the house or even the vice president. They try to start arguments with others and start shouting random statements that are so racist and completely incorrect because they don't care enough to even turn on the news or read the newspaper, like i do.Now i don't seem to find myself an extremely religious person but what i do believe i do not push on other people, i have friends of all religions and we have talked about them and the different holidays and how interesting things are. but never have i said if i was right and they were wrong because i do not believe in such a thing.(I hate it when people are so racist about people from the middle east and from other countries because lets face the facts people, Jesus was no blonde hair blue eyed guy). This is not only in religion or politics but in everything. I get sooooooo angry when i hear adults arguing whether it is about religion or something that has happened recently and one or neither will give the other time to talk. you don't necessarily need to agree with the person but you need to at least give them the time to talk and get their point across, if you do hopefully they will give you the same respect in return. I believe in 99.9999% of arguments the person that is arguing with you will not change your opinion and you become even more offensive of your beliefs if they are yelling at you instead of discussing it in a mature matter. I think it bothers me so much because these are adults and they are older than me and im a kid who and can have a conversation or debate with someone and still be respectful and be able to end it in a classy matter. I just say that i have my ideas and they have theirs, i'm not saying that i'm wrong or right and we are not going to change each others minds so we should just stop arguing and deal with the fact that everyone is different and has different ideas. It is sad that some people are too to immature and one way to even have some respect or class. You give what you get, and never forget that.
Thank You for writing this it is completely true, and those who argue for just the sake of arguing will never understand the true meaning of a debate.
Cassey, unfortunately, age has little to do with maturity level. Often older people feel threatened by change and conduct themselves as narrow minded bigots. They also stick to outdated news and channel their beliefs accordingly. As a 61 years young female, I attempt to be a positive role model for aging vs agism, but older folks bring much of the agism on themselves by continuing to age, but refusing to grow inwardly. Thanks for your comments. (: v
zzron 23 months ago
Thank you for this valerie I agree, some people can be so rude and ugly just over an opinion :)